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XL 750 and Mark 7 650 Pro Not Seating Primers Correctly

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Using Mark 7 650 Pro with XL750. CCI 450 Primers are protruding from the bottom of the case and not seating far enough when attempting to reload .223 cases. Primer Depth/Bottom Trim setting is 0.

I am performing a calibration with a clear shell plate. The ram upstroke appears to be ok with full upstroke, however, the downstroke i am unsure of, as the bottom of the knuckle does not enter the cut out in the bottom of the frame (see calibration photo).  I am using a new motor purchased from Mark 7 two days ago.

Anyone had any luck with this?16023783996516627900980453716418.thumb.jpg.fa9c2acf2b2ff3638208e92745189507.jpg16023784400472808873371137642577.thumb.jpg.0ff9ff477ff11ef7a5bf73bde8c19cec.jpg16023941161041688674008591981609.thumb.jpg.a1eb6a94fbe3256edb42dddccbe6d683.jpg

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Update: After further troubleshooting with several other Mark 7 owners, we determined the primer depth seating issue was due to the use of CCI 450 primers. After switching to Remington BR 7 1/2 primers, the issue resolved with 100% satisfaction. Have not tried any other primer manufacturers as of this posting. 

Hope this helps.

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I am having exactly the same problem with CCI Small Pistol primers with a new 750 and V 1.13 firmware.  Attempting to upgrade has not completely disabled the drive, but the original issue was exactly as originally described above.  Calibration with clear shell plate and everything looking good.  When jogging down or moving down (setup) screen, the primer stage appears to be where it should be, but in operation, the primer is left way high.  The shell plate is tight and rest of the operation of the press looks right.  I am a dealer, this is the first 750 install I have done but I have done many 650 installs and never had this issue.

 

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I think I'm starting to figure out some critical information about how the autodrive works that would explain this.  The autodrive does not stop it's upward or downward travel at the exact same spot every time (Terrifying). It seems to stop at a certain level of strain, not at a fixed distance of stroke. Unfortunately strain in a progressive press changes based on dozens of variables that are constantly changing. If a shell is taking a little extra effort to re-size in station one, that can cause your bullet seating depth to be high and crimp to be light in station 4+5. And what about the times when station one is empty, those bullets go in deeper and get crimped extra aggressively. Not good.

But you can adjust this amount of strain with the digital clutch. If you turn it high enough I think you can make it hit the mechanical limits of the up and down stroke, just like Dillon intended. BUT at that point you are at such a high torque level, if a bullet fell off or shell was out of place it would be crushed sooo hard it would likely damage the machine. Example- I'm loading 9mm and Digital Torque of 5 is enough to get the job done but my bullet and primer seating depths vary .020" and the machine is not hitting the mechanical stops. I have only tested this a tiny bit as it scares me to run it at high torque with how fast the machine moves. But the tiny bit of testing I did at 15 torque, it did hit the mechanical stops top and bottom every time.  

I think the fix for this should be separate digital clutch settings for bullet seating, primer seating, and a general clutch setting that covers 95% of the stroke for safety.

Oh and one extra slow speed would be great, like 100rph. Just for setting up.

 

 
 

Edited by Z1500

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On 12/1/2020 at 1:40 PM, Z1500 said:

I think I'm starting to figure out some critical information about how the autodrive works that would explain this.  The autodrive does not stop it's upward or downward travel at the exact same spot every time (Terrifying). It seems to stop at a certain level of strain, not at a fixed distance of stroke. Unfortunately strain in a progressive press changes based on dozens of variables that are constantly changing. If a shell is taking a little extra effort to re-size in station one, that can cause your bullet seating depth to be high and crimp to be light in station 4+5. And what about the times when station one is empty, those bullets go in deeper and get crimped extra aggressively. Not good.

But you can adjust this amount of strain with the digital clutch. If you turn it high enough I think you can make it hit the mechanical limits of the up and down stroke, just like Dillon intended. BUT at that point you are at such a high torque level, if a bullet fell off or shell was out of place it would be crushed sooo hard it would likely damage the machine. Example- I'm loading 9mm and Digital Torque of 5 is enough to get the job done but my bullet and primer seating depths vary .020" and the machine is not hitting the mechanical stops. I have only tested this a tiny bit as it scares me to run it at high torque with how fast the machine moves. But the tiny bit of testing I did at 15 torque, it did hit the mechanical stops top and bottom every time.  

I think the fix for this should be separate digital clutch settings for bullet seating, primer seating, and a general clutch setting that covers 95% of the stroke for safety.

Oh and one extra slow speed would be great, like 100rph. Just for setting up.

 

 
 

Hi @Z1500 When you calibrate the 650/750 autodrive with an empty shellplate the crank stops when it hits the upper stop block and then lowers until it hits the baseplate cut out. This tells the stepper motor how many steps up and down to perform each stroke until a new calibration occurs. The stroke should stay exactly the same until you calibrate again. The only way the travel changes is if you have an obstruction that does not allow the crank to fully calibrate. If you get a jam or have a sensor stop the press with an error message best practice is to remove the cases and recalibrate to ensure the issue is cleared and the machine can fully cycle to the stop points. 

After you calibrate the machine with an empty shellplate the software backs off the stroke so that the crank isn't hitting these stops points any longer, you set your dies to the appropriate height after calibration using the jog up and down features which don't go all the way to the physical stopping points. 

It is also important to make sure that your dies aren't hitting the shellplate as a false top stop. We recommend leaving a slight gap above the shellplate and dies after you calibrate and install them. You want be sure you are not creating a false top physical stop by a die being too low in the toolhead keeping the platform from going all the way to the top. If you accidentally calibrate with a case in the shellplate when the motor detects resistance when the case hits the die that will be the new stopping point for the crank unless you remove the case and recalibrate. You will notice that cases won't insert in the shellplate and primers won't seat etc. if you accidentally calibrate with a case or obstrution keeping the press from fully going to the top of the stroke.

You should always keep the digital clutch and TorqueSense settings as low as possible to avoid damage to the press and components. You will notice that the digital clutch is active when the platform is rising up to meet the cases in the dies. The TorqueSense is active and will error when the platform is going back down and the index ring is turning the shellplate to advance the cases. If you raise the digital clutch to 20 this safety feature is no longer active and will likely not stop during a jam. 

Thank you,

Misty

M7 Support 

Digital Clutch Use on the Mark 7® 650 PRO Autodrive.pdf

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I've run a bunch of tests tonight to verify some things and I think I'm mostly right about it. So to simplify things let's just focus on the downward stroke for primer seating depth. For these tests I have completely removed the tool head and done my calibration with an empty shell plate. All testing done at Clutch setting 5. XL750 and Autodrive are new. During calibration the machine hit both top and bottom mechanical stops. So still with an empty shell plate I mount a dial indicator to measure the platform's height relative to the reloader's base. Then with the 'Primer Depth' set to 0, I hit 'Goto Bottom' and it pulls the platform all the way down and hits the mechanical stop. I zero the indicator there, that is my .000" datum. Then proceed to test many times the platforms height with 'Primer Depth' set to 0-1-2-3-4-5. It is dead on repeatable and right at .011-.012 per 'Prime Depth' # adjustment. I did this dozens of times and mixed in a bunch of full cycles of the ram and it always came back to: 

0=.000  1=.008  2=.019  3=.030  4=.042  5=.054

That was fantastic but remember that is with an empty shell plate. Then I started running new pieces of Starline 9mm brass in that station and priming them. At this point we would hope for the platform to again hit those exact same heights I measured before for each 'Primer Depth' setting. Nope. 

0=.030  1=.033  2=.037  3=.045  4=.048  5=.060

So the machine is NOT going an exact location each time, it seems to be affected by the strain of seating the primer. I would really hope for an error code to pop up when the machine does not reach it's targeted stroke distance. Kind of a problem for it to short stroke to different heights each time and just keep on trucking.

I did some similar tests at the top of the stroke with the tool head on and found similar results. Empty shell plate goes higher than a full shell plate flaring, sizing etc. and no error given.

This all leads me to believe that the motor is an open loop type stepper and has no closed loop feedback as to it's actual location. Is that right?

 

 

 

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Having same exact issue I have been running 2-1050's with autodrives for several years i have had zero issues and have ran well over a million cycles.  I purchased a new xl750 and a new autodrive.  This thing will not even come close to seating a 9mm primer.  Primer brand should have no effect on seating, so I disagree with that.  Not to mention primers are hard to find now and we cant be picky on what we can get are hands on.  I am running federals currently.  My priming depth looks identical to the original post of the 223.  Theres not fully seating then there is this.....barely enough tension to even hold the primer in, its so shallow.  Phone calls and emails to support no response.  I have installed most up to date firmware and software, shell plate is tight, only have the sizing die installed and its just kissing the plate at full up.  Even backed die completely out then calibrated.  The autodrive just wont go down far enough unless i hit stop, select neutral mode then put the wrench on it and manually set it. Any help would be greatly appreciated.  I will send it in if needed just need it to work.

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I had forgot about this thread. Your old autodrives don't show this problem because they had more gear reduction, giving them much more torque to get to the top and bottom of the stroke under tension. The newer faster autodrives are geared out for speed and lack the torque to be super consistent in peak travel. The current autodrives make complete junk ammo, I took mine off my 750 and all my problems went away. It would be great if anyone at Mark7 cared and resolved this problem. I'd be delighted if the thing only ran 900RPM if they were just precision reloads.

 

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Or even better would be a feedback type motor with optical encoder, checking that the motor actually reaches top and bottom of it's stroke. 

 

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I've been running a Mark 7 on my XL650, and bought a XL750 last summer to run on the Mark 7, and also ran into this last night loading some 9mm for a USPSA match today.  I had replaced the OEM powder failsafe bushing/mount with one from UniqueTek so I could have a bit more control over the orientation of the powder measure.  The UniqueTek bushing is brass. This created too much drag on the Mark 7, and it wouldn't calibrate properly, or seat primers. I disconnected the failsafe, and it ran fine. Replaced the OEM mount and nylon bushing, and it runs fine. 

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